Monday, October 09, 2006

Email from a 14 year old fundie

I received a cute email from a 14 year old fundie named Raquel

Hi my name is Raquel and I am 14 years of age. I -just this evening- read your creationist hating blog "share my thoughts." I am requesting you to read my post and i will research/find answers to any of your questions (as you will understand after you read it).

She wrote the comments below regarding a Deep Thoughts blog post titled Corrupting the minds of our young from May of 2005.

Evolution has been discredited many many times. Watch a series called Answers in Gensis( the one with Ken Ham) and watch him disprove evolution with real hardcore science! I am a 14 year old student and I kow more trut than "scientists" who have studied the THEORY of evolution. That ideas of evolution are constantly changing because we keep disproving it with the bible! How could the only life in the universe just so happen to evolve on the only life sustaning planet there is? How could we (as in the earth) just so happen to be placed just in the right spot in the galaxy to observe the universe around us? By chance? Use common sense! Answer me this, is the earth beautiful? Of couse it is! Can a beautiful painting evolve? You wish, there has to be a creator/designer to create beauty. The big bang theory is also believed by many/most evolutionists. The big bang is similar to an atomic bomb. Has an atomic bomb ever put things into order? Such an explotion would destroy, not create!! Many scientist who devouted their whole lives to disprove the Bible became solid Christians! They could do nothing to disprove it!!

I would love to take on 14 year old Raquel, really I would. But what can I say that would dent the fervor of a true believer? After all, she knows "more truth than Scientists".

I could bag on her spelling, but why throw stones? I had to read her post a few times to catch the misspellings, and god knows I spell like a ten year old.

I could point out that the bible cannot be used to proved itself. Or that just because the bible says god created everything does not prove that anything is evolution is wrong. If fact, scientists working within the field contribute to an ever maturing understanding of evolution, not the bible.

I could talk on this subject ad neuseum. Only experience and healthy exposure to rock & roll will provide young Raquel with a different perspective.

Rachael, please come back in ten years. Until then, I advise reading more (not the bible or fundie Christian stuff), studying science, and questioning everything.

9 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well here's the 14 year old "fundie" as you call me... I didn't even know that was a word. Here's some information from the "Answers in Genesis" website. Here's my proof, how my belief is true. And for someone who is debating the reason why we even got here, spelling shouldn't matter!

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Creation: ‘where’s the proof?’
When the person you talk to on creation insists that you ‘leave the Bible out of it’, they are really saying the deck should be stacked one way.
by Ken Ham

Over the years, many people have challenged me with a question like:

‘I’ve been trying to witness to my friends. They say they don’t believe the Bible and aren’t interested in the stuff in it. They want real proof that there’s a God who created, and then they’ll listen to my claims about Christianity. What proof can I give them without mentioning the Bible so they’ll start to listen to me?’

Briefly, my response is as follows.

Evidence
Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.

Past and present
We all exist in the present—and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about (Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.), what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present.

However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.

Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.

On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.

Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, e.g. no God (or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the evidence of the present.

Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions.

That’s why the argument often turns into something like:

‘Can’t you see what I’m talking about?’

‘No, I can’t. Don’t you see how wrong you are?’

‘No, I’m not wrong. It’s obvious that I’m right.’

‘No, it’s not obvious.’ And so on.

These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.

It’s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with, that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the evidence differently until they put on a different set of glasses—which means to change one’s presuppositions.

I’ve found that a Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist’s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how they look at evidence. However, for a number of reasons, including spiritual ones, a non-Christian usually can’t put on the Christian’s glasses—unless they recognize the presuppositional nature of the battle and are thus beginning to question their own presuppositions.

It is of course sometimes possible that just by presenting ‘evidence’, you can convince a person that a particular scientific argument for creation makes sense ‘on the facts’. But usually, if that person then hears a different interpretation of the same evidence that seems better than yours, that person will swing away from your argument, thinking they have found ‘stronger facts’.

However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions—i.e. starting beliefs.

As a teacher, I found that whenever I taught the students what I thought were the ‘facts’ for creation, then their other teacher would just re-interpret the facts. The students would then come back to me saying, ‘Well sir, you need to try again.’

However, when I learned to teach my students how we interpret facts, and how interpretations are based on our presuppositions, then when the other teacher tried to reinterpret the facts, the students would challenge the teacher’s basic assumptions. Then it wasn’t the students who came back to me, but the other teacher! This teacher was upset with me because the students wouldn’t accept her interpretation of the evidence and challenged the very basis of her thinking.

What was happening was that I had learned to teach the students how to think rather than just what to think. What a difference that made to my class! I have been overjoyed to find, sometimes decades later, some of those students telling me how they became active, solid Christians as a result.

Debate terms
If one agrees to a discussion without using the Bible as some people insist, then they have set the terms of the debate. In essence these terms are:

‘Facts’ are neutral. However, there are no such things as ‘brute facts’; all facts are interpreted. Once the Bible is eliminated in the argument, then the Christians’ presuppositions are gone, leaving them unable to effectively give an alternate interpretation of the facts. Their opponents then have the upper hand as they still have their presuppositions — see Naturalism, logic and reality.

Truth can/should be determined independent of God. However, the Bible states: ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’ (Psalm 111:10); ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge’ (Proverbs 1:7). ‘But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned’ (1 Corinthians 2:14).

A Christian cannot divorce the spiritual nature of the battle from the battle itself. A non-Christian is not neutral. The Bible makes this very clear: ‘The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters’ (Matthew 12:30); ‘And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil’ (John 3:19).

Agreeing to such terms of debate also implicitly accepts their proposition that the Bible’s account of the universe’s history is irrelevant to understanding that history!

Ultimately, God’s Word convicts
1 Peter 3:15 and other passages make it clear we are to use every argument we can to convince people of the truth, and 2 Cor. 10:4–5 says we are to refute error (like Paul did in his ministry to the Gentiles). Nonetheless, we must never forget Hebrews 4:12: ‘For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.’

Also, Isaiah 55:11: ‘So shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.’

Even though our human arguments may be powerful, ultimately it is God’s Word that convicts and opens people to the truth. In all of our arguments, we must not divorce what we are saying from the Word that convicts.

Practical application
When someone tells me they want ‘proof’ or ‘evidence’, not the Bible, my response is as follows:

‘You might not believe the Bible but I do. And I believe it gives me the right basis to understand this universe and correctly interpret the facts around me. I’m going to give you some examples of how building my thinking on the Bible explains the world and is not contradicted by science. For instance, the Bible states that God made distinct kinds of animals and plants. Let me show you what happens when I build my thinking on this presupposition. I will illustrate how processes such as natural selection, genetic drift, etc. can be explained and interpreted. You will see how the science of genetics makes sense based upon the Bible.’

One can of course do this with numerous scientific examples, showing how the issue of sin and judgment, for example, is relevant to geology and fossil evidence. And how the Fall of man, with the subsequent Curse on creation, makes sense of the evidence of harmful mutations, violence, and death.

Once I’ve explained some of this in detail, I then continue:

‘Now let me ask you to defend your position concerning these matters. Please show me how your way of thinking, based on your beliefs, makes sense of the same evidence. And I want you to point out where my science and logic are wrong.’

In arguing this way, a Christian is:

Using biblical presuppositions to build a way of thinking to interpret the evidence.

Showing that the Bible and science go hand in hand.1

Challenging the presuppositions of the other person (many are unaware they have these).

Forcing the debater to logically defend his position consistent with science and his own presuppositions (many will find that they cannot do this).

Honouring the Word of God that convicts the soul.

Remember, it’s no good convincing people to believe in creation, without also leading them to believe and trust in the Creator/Redeemer, Jesus Christ. God honours those who honour His Word. We need to use God-honouring ways of reaching people with the truth of what life is all about.

Naturalism, logic and reality
Those arguing against creation may not even be conscious of their most basic presupposition, one which excludes God a priori, namely naturalism/materialism (everything came from matter, there is no supernatural, no prior creative intelligence).2 The following two real-life examples highlight some problems with that assumption:

A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, ‘Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don’t believe in God.’ I answered him, ‘Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don’t know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don’t know if you’re making correct statements or even whether you’re asking me the right questions.’

The young man looked at me and blurted out, ‘What was that book you recommended?’ He finally realized that his belief undercut its own foundations —such ‘reasoning’ destroys the very basis for reason.

On another occasion, a man came to me after a seminar and said, ‘Actually, I’m an atheist. Because I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in absolutes, so I recognize that I can’t even be sure of reality.’ I responded, ‘Then how do you know you’re really here making this statement?’ ‘Good point,’ he replied. ‘What point?’ I asked. The man looked at me, smiled, and said, ‘Maybe I should go home.’ I stated, ‘Maybe it won’t be there.’ ‘Good point,’ the man said. ‘What point?’ I replied.

This man certainly got the message. If there is no God, ultimately, philosophically, how can one talk about reality? How can one even rationally believe that there is such a thing as truth, let alone decide what it is?

Mojoey said...

Raquel, next time post a link.

The bible is a collection of myths and wishfull thinking.

Scientific thinking rules the day.

The only thing we agree on is that spelling don't count.

btw - fundie is slang for fundamentalist. It's not a nice term, but it is accurate. Fundies turn their brain off when the try to use the bible to explains the natural world. Use your brain.

Anonymous said...

Raquel, ignore him. Whatever you do don't use your brain. At your age "logic" and "arguments" are necessarily regurgitating other peoples ideas. Take his first round of advice and listen to Rock N' Roll. Preferably punk. Paint your nails black die your hair pink, wear a leather jacket, in the long run you'll be better off. After you've shocked the pants off of your family and they haven't been able to drag you to church for a few years you'll be able to start thinking for yourself. At that point if you become religious again, it will actually mean something, and if you don't that will be for good reasons too.

Mojoey said...

Funny that RG - and right too.

Anonymous said...

Fundie is the slang usage of what I am. And fundamentalists know the f u n d a m e n t a l s, the simplest things. Othyer people don't-as I can see.

First of all dressing RG's suggestion makes anyone look completely hideous -whether they want to admit it or not- and being dragged to church is not necessary.
-I'm not that rebellious
-I enjoy youth group, got the best pastor.
-Acting like an a young, rebellious child all your life, is not going to make you any older./no duh/ Thinking for yourself doesn't come from acting like a brat all your life, it just gives you the wrong ideas. =/

I can argue and disprove evolution if I want to (age doesn't matter, I can prove a point whether you believe it or not -just to let you know-)
->RG you are right, but only on one point. I do ignor his incorrect remarks.

One more side note, if I didn't use my brain, then what would be the point? Usually adults and some children are blessed with the gift of understanding the difference between stupidity from using your head. Now I know that not all of them are.

Mojoey said...

Raquel, the problem is your fundamentalism. You hold the bible to be the word of god and infallible. You believe that no person is right to change it or disagree with it. What is there to talk about?

Fundamentalists do not "Know the fundamentals". They instead limit their intellect to a literal interpretation of the bible. Anything that contracts the bible is suspect. Arguing with a Fundamentalist is futile.

My blog is meant to discuss issues like this. I'll be happy to discuss your fundamentalism. ID and Evolution seem a little heady, but I'll even take a whack at that too, provided I am on an even footing. I've read the bible several times. Have you read The Origin of Species or On Natural Selection?

I am not interested in what Answers in Genesis has to say. Science has already withstood the best they had to offer. What do you have to say? Why do you believe what you believe? These are the questions that matter. So, let us start with something simple. Why are you a Christian?

Anonymous said...

There is nothing wrong with the truth -fundamentalism- because how can you know the complicanted things if you don't know the fundamantals. GOD'S Word is not all we believe, its the fundamentals that we base facts on. We all know that 2+2=4, but some believe that God gave us that knowledge and others believe that evolution magically presented it to our minds. It may seem that most Christians turned to this faith because of their parents or for no reason but to satisfy fears of hell; but then they are not true Christians. Christian belief does not consist of just a book without proof, though that is what you may think. I know you don't care what Answers in Genesis has to say, if you did and you looked into it then you would be proven wrong. We know fact, fact is easy. Its how we interprit it that matters.

Anonymous said...

Oh and sorry about not posting a link...
Well not too sorry, because if I had posted a link you would not have clicked it. Since its right there you have to pass it every time.

Anonymous said...

So Mojoey, Any comments? Oh and by the way, when I was thinking about our debate I decided to make a different website- to focuss on that issue of the belief in evolution.

I'm sorry if I appeared to say:
"I'm right, your wrong and I won't pay attention to your belief." I really want to help you understand the truth of God's existance. If you think I'm pushing Bible down your throat, then lets settle with this fact: There is a designer, One who placed our fully set up and functioning bodies in the beautiful earth that He created. If you don't believe in who the Creator is, then at least accept that He's there, whoever you believe Him to be. Then maybe you can look into who He has revieled Himself to be.