Thursday, July 12, 2007

The "wound"

Is calling a protestant a "wound" like calling somebody a stain? The Pope has expressed his thoughts, Protestants are not Christians. A just released document called the Dominus Iesus makes the claim, it is bond to be controversial. The Pope seems bent on creating division. Is another holy war in the works?

All it will take for the Pope to back away from this position is for Protestants to rise up like the Muslims did when the Pope criticized Islam. A few riots, maybe burn a church or two....

I've had two conversations in the last month where people I know have tried to convince me other groups are not actually Christians. My position is simple, if you claim you are a Christian, then who am I to judge?

A young relative who is stuck in the slightly stupid age of 14, went on an anti-catholic rant at my family's independence day calibration. He's a Jack Chick fundie who thinks everyone but a few of his bible believing cohorts are not real Christians. I eventually had to shut him down, several of my Catholic relatives were getting upset. We have an unspoken rule at family parties, no politics or preaching. it helps keep the peace. 

The other was a pastor friend who calmly tired to tell me that virtually everyone I know who professes to be a Christian is not really a Christian. Beside accepting Jesus as your savior, the is some special set of rules that determine if your actions make you a true Christian. Everyone else, especially the Catholics, are going to hell. Even my mom, whose concept of what a Christian is is as simple as it gets. I grew so upset by the arrogance express in this mans believes that I swore off ever talking about religion with him again. It was simply mind boggling.

9 comments:

Anonymous said...

Isn't it comforting to know that these nutbags won't get an afterlife, that those that they say are doomed to hell won't have any consciousness once the synapses in the brain no longer function? That when they're wormfood, the only thing that lives on is other people's memories of them, that is unless they have accomplished something that will influence future generations.
I guess believing in some zealous fantasy helps people through the hard realities of life. Isn't it interesting that they can see the Emporer has no clothes when it comes to other religions but are clueless to their own delusions.

Carolyn Ann said...

If there's another religious war between Christians, I'm working in the coat-check...

(I guess I'd better explain that one: it's somewhat traditional in England, that when someone starts a fight (in a pub, for instance) for some wit (I use the term loosely) to say "I'm right behind ya! I'll hold your coat!".)

So, I'll work in the coat check. As long as I can wear something cute, though... :-) )

Carolyn Ann

yinyang said...

Jack Chick frightens me, and this pope just seems to be messing up all the good will people felt about the last one.

Darwin's Dagger said...

As Bart Simpson once said "It's all Christianity, people! The little stupid differences are nothing next to the big stupid similarities!"

Johnny Crow said...

I usually bring two points up in almost any argument with someone about religion/god/christianity. The first is the pie chart. Divide it by the base Abrahamic religion and you get a 33.33% of being right and getting into heaven. Then break it down even further with the different denominations of all groups. and so on... kind of interesting to see a reaction when they realize that pascals wager is moot and that their chance of actually being right is less than even 1%.

The second point I bring up is "why the semantics". If there were a god do you really think gives two hoots about who was born first or if you said your blessing and so on? I don't think he/she/it would have a probably only believing in a god (or not) and living a just and moral life. Semantics are for people who need something to bitch about. Any god who cares about that stuff is someone I wouldn't want to hang around eternity with. At least with the devil I would know what to expect.

If you are going to believe in something at least be open about it. I can deal with Deist because even though they believe in a supreme being. They don't believe they have an effect on our everyday lives plus they are usually more into reason and logic.

Anonymous said...

This isn't new. Catholics have never accepted protestants as Christians. Religious war. Please. Protestants do not care if catholics think we are christians. This paper actually was written in 2000 under pope John Paul II.

This is a doctrinal thing. If someone is a sacramentalist (meaning salvation through sacraments) and the sacraments are controled by the church, then by definition someone outside the church cannot be a christian (i.e. in good graces with God). This one came up in the reformation. Protestants do not beleive in sacraments but salvation through grace through faith. This is what makes protestants protestants. We are against the control of the sacraments by the clergy (i.e. the authority of the church to determine the means of salvation.

brad

Anonymous said...

That is so not what I said. I said: A Christian is not someone who claims to be a Christian but someone, anyone catholic protestant whatever, who is personally repentant toward the will of Christ or who has a relationship with Jesus as their Lord.

For example, if I know Jesus says "love your enemy" and I resolve in my heart to hate so and so and I persist in this hatred then i am by definition not resolved to the Lordship of Jesus so I am not a Christian regardless of what i call myself. The example I gave is that if i call myself a chemist but refuse to accept basic concepts about the behavior of atoms then I am not a chemist regardless of what i call myself. it is called nominal Christianity - Christian in name only.

A Christian is a person who has a personal relationship with Jesus as Lord not merely one who accepts a certain creedal positon. This position that I hold is mainstream Christianity. It is also something that each person has to resolve within themselves. I cannot nor would I say to any individual, "you are not a Christian" if they beleive they are. I would explain biblically what a Christian is and let them decide whether they conform to the biblical definition of a Christian. Indeed, part of the biblical definition is that many people will call themselves Christians and are deluded. it is very obvious that the Bible is correct on this point. This in fact is a point you make over and over in this blog. In other words, hypocrites. There are a lot of hypocrites in the world. Or do you disagree with this concept.

As I also said, if you try to not understand then you won't, and if you try to catch people in mis-speak then you will. This is the nature of communication. Language is very limited and it is a pre-requisite of understanding that you attempt to actually understand the other person. You misquote and misunderstand my positions because you do not want to understand what I am saying. This is how miscommunication works. It is far more a relational or political dynamic than one of actual ideas not making sense. You see a religious straw man that actually is only very rarely reality.

brad

Anonymous said...

Jack Chick scares me too, yingyang. But these guys over at www.316now.com almost make him funny. There are a bunch of short films based on actual Jack Chick tracts. Check it out. Laughing at Jack and his like may be the best strategy!

Anonymous said...

Johnny Crow, you're going to need a bigger pie chart -- we've got:

Aaronic Order, Abangan, Abenaki mythology, Aesthetic Realism, Aetherius Society, African Initiated Church, Agni Yoga, Akamba mythology, Akan mythology, Albanian mythology (Illyrian gods), Alchemy, Alex Chiu, Alexandrian Wicca, Anago, Ananda Marga, Ananda Marga Tantra-Yoga, Ancestor worship, Ancient Egyptian religion, Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis, Ancient Semitic religions, Anglo-Saxon mythology, Animism, Anito, Anthroposophy, Antoinism, Arès Pilgrim Movement, Argenteum Astrum, Ásatrú, Ashanti mythology, Association for Research and Enlightenment, Astrology, Atenism, Aum Shinrikyo (Aleph), Australian Aboriginal mythology, Ayahuasca-based beliefs, Ayyavazhi , Aztec mythology, Bábism, Babylonian mythology, Bahá’í, Balinese mythology, Bambuti mythology, Basque mythology, Batuque, Black Hebrews, Blackfoot mythology, Body of Christ, Brahma Kumaris, Branch Davidians, Branhamism, Breatharianism (Air cult), Buddhism, Burkhanism, Bushongo mythology, Bwiti, Calvary Chapel, Canaanite religion, Candomblé, Cao Dai, Caodaism, Cargo cults, Carvaka, Catalan mythology, Catholic Mariavite Church, Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, Chaldean mythology, Chaos magic, Chen Tao, Chickasaw mythology, Children of God, Chinese mythology, Choctaw mythology, Chondogyo, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Christian City Church, Christian Identity, Christian Reconstructionism, Christian Science, Christianity, Church of All Worlds, Church of Christ, Instrumental, Church of Jesus Christ Christian, Church of Satan, Church of Synanon, Church of the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Church of the Last Testament, Church of the Lord, Church of the Universe, Church of World Messianity, Church Universal and Triumphant, Concerned Christians, Confraternity of the Rose Cross, Confucianism, Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen, Cosmotheism, Creek mythology, Crow mythology, Dahomey mythology, Dances of Universal Peace, Daoyuan, Deism, Demonolatry, Destiny Church, New Zealand, Dianic Wicca , Dievturiba, Digitalism, Dinka mythology, Direct Worship of the Actual God, Discordianism, Ditheism, Divination, Divine Light Mission, Divine Science, Doukhobor, Dragon Rouge, Eckankar, Efik mythology, Elan Vital, Eleusinian Mysteries, Endeavor Academy, English mythology, Enochian magic, Eschatology, Esoteric Christianity, Estonian mythology, Eternal Grace, Ethical Culture, Etruscan mythology, Evangelical Covenant Church of America, Evangelical Free Church of America, Exclusive Brethren, Faery Wicca, Faithists of Kosmon, Falun Gong, Faradian Islam, Fascism, Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches, Fellowship of Reason, Feng Shui, Feri Tradition, Finnish mythology, Finnish neopaganism, Finnish paganism, Focolare Movement, Foundation for A Course In Miracles, Fourth Way, Fraternitas Saturni, French mythology, Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, Gabâ, Gallo-Roman religion, Gardnerian Wicca, Ghost Dance, Gnosticism, Goetia, Grace Movement Churches, Grail Movement, Great Commission 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Non-denominational Christian Conventions, Nootka mythology, Norse mythology, Numerology, Nuwaubianism, Obeah, Objectivism, Occultism, Odinism, Olmec mythology, Omnism, Oneness University, Oomoto, Order of the Solar Temple, Ordo Templi Orientis, Osho/Rajneeshism, Oyotunji, Pana Wave, Pandeism, Panendeism, Panentheism, Pantheism, Parmalim, Pawnee mythology, Peoples Temple, Peyotism, Polydeism, Pow-wow, Pre-Islamic Arabian mythology , Process Church of the Final Judgment, Providence, Psychonautics, Pulajans, Pygmy mythology, Pythagoreanism, Quan Yin Method, Quimbanda, Raelism, Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment, Rastafari Movement, Rationalism, Reclaiming, Reiki, Roman mythology, Romanian mythology, Romuva, Rosicrucian, Rosicrucian Fellowship, Sahaja Yoga, Salish mythology, Samaritanism, Sant Mat, Santería, Santo Daime, Santri, Sathya Sai Baba movement, Savitri Era, Schwenkfelder Church, Scientology, Scottish mythology, Seax-Wica, Secular Humanism, Seicho-No-Ie, Seid, Self-Realization 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