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That's very funny and a very tempting idea but I'm going to rain on the parade a little and ask whether this will actually advance the cause of atheism at all. Call me a boring old fart but I'm beginning to think a little more decorum on our part would make the world a better place. Nothing wrong with ripping theists a new one in a reasoned debate but I think we need to be bigger than these schoolboy pranks even though I would laugh my ass off...
Oh absolutely. But giving someone what they deserve doesn't always benefit you or them. In this case, you get a bit of a laugh and they go away and tell all their fundie friends what some evil baby-eating atheist asshat did to them on the freeway this morning. As I said, funny in theory but a bad idea in practice. Never forget that these idiots love to feel persecuted. They think it makes them more like Jesus.
They'd know he's an atheist by virtue of the fact that they got the finger when they expressed a love for Jesus. What other conclusion could they reasonably come to?
Of course we should be concerned that Christians have a negative view of atheists. You won't convert a fundie but the fundies are currently, in some cultures, winning the hearts and minds of moderates and 'agnostics' rather better than atheists are. Why give them more ammunition in their fight against us?
The point is similar to the central message of customer service. Treat a bad customer badly and they'll tell all their friends, who may well have turned out to be quite good customers. Treat a bad customer well and they'll have less to bad mouth you about. We're not trying to retain bad customers; we're trying to gain new business.
The correct approach has two paths:
Concentrate on countering the public displays of idiocy and vitriol of the fundies but don't engage them one on one in private without an audience. They'll select and misrepresent your words and actions and always come out portraying themselves as the winners or the martyrs.
Concentrate on educating the moderates and the swing voters about real atheism, reason, science and the true marvels of an evidence based view of the universe and our place in it.
It doesn't matter whether he thinks the finger giver is Muslim Jewish or atheist. The point is he knows somebody is persecuting him for his religious beliefs which makes him more righteous and more bigotted and more militant. And what are the chances of a person with such a bumper sticker thinking a honker isn't responding to it? Slim at best.
I wasn't thinking about the third world or about Europe. I was thinking of the US and the Muslim world. That's where the major battles are being fought. Nobody cares about sub-Saharan Africa and the war against religion is pretty much already won in Europe.
Of course they're converting atheists! Every child is an atheist until they get converted to the religion of their parents and peers. And I think this kind of behaviour from atheists does turn people off. A lot of people don't really have 'proper' faith; they just call themselves believers for cultural reasons. And yet, when they see that part of their identity, however shallow rooted, being attacked in a childish and vindictive manner for no discernable purpose they will hardly be coerced to our side of the fence. On the contrary.
As for Hitchens and Dawkins, they do a fantastic job. But they're not simply giving theists the finger. They back up their insults with strong evidence and reasoned arguments as to why they feel the need to be insulting. They're not being insulting for no reason. Hitchens said Falwell was full of shit because he was. And he has spent a great deal of time explaining exactly what form that shit took and what its consequences were for humanity.
You seem to be missing pretty much the whole of my central point. I'm not suggesting we can convert fundies. I'm suggesting we need to convert 'weak' theists and, at the same time, stop fundies converting them to the dark side. I'm not a weak atheist. I think the existence of gods is exactly as likely as the existence of Russell's teapot. But perhaps you are assuming I'm a pluralist. I'm not that either. Religion is wrong and needs to be eradicated. I just don't see how giving people the finger does anything to achieve that aim and I do see how it can weaken our position.
Logging you in...
deleted609912 88p · 853 weeks ago
Jack 119p · 853 weeks ago
Mojoey 107p · 853 weeks ago
Higginbottom 38p · 853 weeks ago
That's very funny and a very tempting idea but I'm going to rain on the parade a little and ask whether this will actually advance the cause of atheism at all. Call me a boring old fart but I'm beginning to think a little more decorum on our part would make the world a better place. Nothing wrong with ripping theists a new one in a reasoned debate but I think we need to be bigger than these schoolboy pranks even though I would laugh my ass off...
Mojoey 107p · 853 weeks ago
suzyqjenn · 853 weeks ago
Tony P · 853 weeks ago
I'd carry that one further though, if one has a religious bumper sticker on their car they deserve to have the finger thrown at them.
Higginbottom 38p · 853 weeks ago
The Grenadian · 853 weeks ago
Higginbottom 38p · 853 weeks ago
Of course we should be concerned that Christians have a negative view of atheists. You won't convert a fundie but the fundies are currently, in some cultures, winning the hearts and minds of moderates and 'agnostics' rather better than atheists are. Why give them more ammunition in their fight against us?
The point is similar to the central message of customer service. Treat a bad customer badly and they'll tell all their friends, who may well have turned out to be quite good customers. Treat a bad customer well and they'll have less to bad mouth you about. We're not trying to retain bad customers; we're trying to gain new business.
The correct approach has two paths:
Concentrate on countering the public displays of idiocy and vitriol of the fundies but don't engage them one on one in private without an audience. They'll select and misrepresent your words and actions and always come out portraying themselves as the winners or the martyrs.
Concentrate on educating the moderates and the swing voters about real atheism, reason, science and the true marvels of an evidence based view of the universe and our place in it.
Higginbottom 38p · 852 weeks ago
I wasn't thinking about the third world or about Europe. I was thinking of the US and the Muslim world. That's where the major battles are being fought. Nobody cares about sub-Saharan Africa and the war against religion is pretty much already won in Europe.
Of course they're converting atheists! Every child is an atheist until they get converted to the religion of their parents and peers. And I think this kind of behaviour from atheists does turn people off. A lot of people don't really have 'proper' faith; they just call themselves believers for cultural reasons. And yet, when they see that part of their identity, however shallow rooted, being attacked in a childish and vindictive manner for no discernable purpose they will hardly be coerced to our side of the fence. On the contrary.
As for Hitchens and Dawkins, they do a fantastic job. But they're not simply giving theists the finger. They back up their insults with strong evidence and reasoned arguments as to why they feel the need to be insulting. They're not being insulting for no reason. Hitchens said Falwell was full of shit because he was. And he has spent a great deal of time explaining exactly what form that shit took and what its consequences were for humanity.
You seem to be missing pretty much the whole of my central point. I'm not suggesting we can convert fundies. I'm suggesting we need to convert 'weak' theists and, at the same time, stop fundies converting them to the dark side. I'm not a weak atheist. I think the existence of gods is exactly as likely as the existence of Russell's teapot. But perhaps you are assuming I'm a pluralist. I'm not that either. Religion is wrong and needs to be eradicated. I just don't see how giving people the finger does anything to achieve that aim and I do see how it can weaken our position.
Mojoey 107p · 852 weeks ago