I've been looking into fundamentalism lately. Partly in response to a 14 year old fundie who wants to start a dialog with me. And partly because I receive 20 disturbing emails a month, all telling me I'm going to hell, or will be killed, or... well, the list is quite long. Rest assured, few emails are based in love.
I found an essay on fundamentalism by Scott Bidstrup which seems helpful. I am not sure of Bidstrup's world view. So I don't have a basis to judge his work. It looks sound.
This emphasis on doctrinal conformity seems to be the result of the belief in the requirement of absolute conformity to doctrine to achieve salvation. Yet at the same time, many will also officially claim that simple acceptance of that sect's doctrine is sufficient for salvation. This dichotomy is often seen in the same sect; some of the fundamentalist Christian sects being good examples. The contradiction seems to go unnoticed or if it is noticed, it is ignored.
Source: Why Fundamentalism is Wrong
Bidstrup has an interesting rating scale he calls the "Bidstrup's Index of Fundamentalism." It attempts to place fundamentalist sects on a numeric scale which can be used for relative comparisons when looking at the degree of intolerance and bigotry associated with a fundamentalist religion
My favorite section deals with the need for fundamentalist.
Does God really need the fundamentalist's efforts?
To make the claim that God needs one's efforts is a flat-out denial of the power of God. Claiming that God is omnipotent and omniscient is to imply that nothing happens in the universe that isn't happening with the knowledge and consent of God. How could it happen without the knowledge of God? It has to be that way if you accept the omniscience of God. If God doesn't allow it, how can it happen? Otherwise, God would not be omnipotent. If God allows it, it implies at least knowledge and consent.
The essay is an interesting read. I am looking for other material. I need to defend myself against the pugnacious 14 year old Rachel. I'm not sure that I'm up to the task.
10 comments:
When I was thinking about our debate I decided to make a different website- to focuss on that issue of the belief in evolution.
I'm sorry if I appeared to say:
"I'm right, your wrong and I won't pay attention to your belief." I really want to help you understand the truth of God's existance. If you think I'm pushing Bible down your throat, then lets settle with this fact: There is a designer, One who placed our fully set up and functioning bodies in the beautiful earth that He created. If you don't believe in who the Creator is, then at least accept that He's there, whoever you believe Him to be. Then maybe you can look into who He has revieled Himself to be.
Raquel - you see the problem is... I am actually an atheist. I don't believe in god. Not even a little bit. Not even in my darkest moments.
We don't agree on the facts. There is no designer. What is there to talk about?
Regarding your post...
God doesn't need us, if He needed us then He would't be God. But like everyone, Christians have responsibilties. God doesn't just use us, He also rewards us for obeying. Obeying doesn't always mean that He's just going to tell you to do a random thing so He can be amused, He has a plan for that. He knows all things sees all things, but He gives us the option of choices. He has all power but that doesn't mean that He's going to make your every move. He chose to give us the ability to think for ourselves, and because He knows all He knows all the choices that we make.
You may ask that if God wants us to worship Him, then why doesn't He use His power to make us all bow to Him. Though He could do that if He wanted to, we wouldn't really love Him if we were "programmed" by Him to do so.
He loves us and wants to give us options and does not want to make us slaves to Him. Do not get that mixed with the verse that says that we were slaves of sin and now slaves of righteousness. ** I'll post another on that verse later.
There is something to talk about because your have the wrong belief. That gives a lot to talk about. Athiest's do not "believe" there is no god, they reject the god that's there and say there is none.
Give me evidence that evolution is real...
Raquel, look lass. You are a 14-year-old girl and the daughter of some concerned parent I hope. I WILL NOT try to teach the ways of atheism or defend it. It is not my responsibility, nor would I care to step on the toes of your parents. Regarding my beliefs: they are none of your fucking business. I am not interested in learning about your faith. Been there, done that.
When you are old enough to realize right from wrong you will understand that what you are trying to do is a horrible thing. No, go play with a Barbie or something.
The fact of the matter is, you have no way to defend your belief. Therefore you are trying to get off the subject. We've debated and you were trying to prove a point If you had proof you would show it and "prove me wrong." But there is no proof. If you can't defend your belief than how do you know mines wrong?
Don't worry, I never liked barbies. Besides, it would be such a waist of time when I have the opportunity to share the truth with someone.
my email- findhistruth@yahoo.com
You are asking the impossible. The existence of god and neither be proven or disproven.
and...
I have no faith - do you understand what that means? No matter what you say - I will never believe in god. Ever.
Tell me - can you prove the Thor does not exists?
Who do you know that worships Thor? I never have heard of anyone worshipping him. They gave him up a log time ago because he isn't real. And why is it that everwhere I look he is considered a pagan god. Why do Muslims, Jews, Hindu, athiests, and many other different people become Christian? And why dont TRUE Christians convert to any of those? Many religions have gods with human feelings who sin and are never satisfied. Then would that be god or a product of a humans imagination? I am not devoted to disproving every single pagan god. So what is there to talk about?
I'm not trying to convert you in a sense. The debate was to present facts. God's existance is a fact. But when/if you finally realize the fact hen that will no doubt 'convert' you.
You told me that fundamentalism was wrong because we believed in the Bible and that we thought nothing could disprove it no matter what. At least we have something to believe Him by. But you are athiest, you don't believe there is no god because of any proof or any reason, and nothing can prove to you(even solid scientific proof)that he's real. Same objection you had against Christianity except you have no bases of 'your' belief.
How could we have 100's of believes in gods then out of the blue deny that there even is one??
Regarding Thor – he was a god of the germainc peoples circa AD 1000 that co-existed at the same time of some of the early Christ worshipers. Hundreds of thousands of people worshiped him and the gods of his pantheon. Thor is still worshipped today, but few people it is true, but people do claim his as a God.
What does the word pagan mean? A person who follows a polytheistic or pre-Christian religion (not a Christian or Muslim or Jew) So, the world has millions if not billions of pagans currently. The Hindus are a good example, polytheistic and non-Christian. Referring to some or something is the same as saying they don’t believe in your god, that is all.
Why do Muslims, Jews, Hindu, atheists 9(sic), and many other different people become Christian? You could ask this question as why do Christians become Muslims, or atheists, on animists. People change their minds all the time. It do big deal that people do this. If it were, the Islam would be the true religion because more people are becoming Muslims today than any other religion.
And why dont TRUE Christians convert to any of those? “True” question is begging the question of what is a TRUE Christian. If it thinks of TRUE Christians as Christians who do not leave the church, then your logic is suspect.
Many religions have gods with human feelings who sin and are never satisfied. Then would that be god or a product of a humans (sic) imagination?
Are you kidding? It is all made up. There is no proof for any god, let alone Thor or the great witch of the north. A fairytale is a fairytale, you just happen to believe yours is true.
I am not devoted to disproving every single pagan god. So what is there to talk about?
Sure you are – all you have to do is prove your god exists, and then ALL gods exists. Because the Ten Commandments actually says “no other gods” – so even god thought there were other gods. So if there were other gods, do you choose to believe in your god because he wore the best toga or something? It’s all a fairytale.
I'm not trying to convert you in a sense. The debate was to present facts. God's existance (sic) is a fact. But when/if you finally realize the fact hen (sic) that will no doubt 'convert' you.
A fact is: An indisputable truth – As far as I know, and the best philosophers of our time agree, there are no indisputable truths concerning the existence of your god.
You told me that fundamentalism was wrong because we believed in the Bible and that we thought nothing could disprove it no matter what. At least we have something to believe Him by. – Are you kidding me?
Your fundamentalism dictates that everything in the bible is the word of god. That means that facts that disagree with the bible are automatically discounted. How can an intelligent conversation even take place? It is impossible under these conditions.
But you are atheist (sic), you don't believe there is no god because of any proof or any reason, and nothing can prove to you(even solid scientific proof)that he's real.
I’ll go slowly here so understand the concept clearly:
An Atheist (you should learn to spell it) is someone who denies the existence of god.
An Agnostic is One who holds the theory that God is unknown or unknowable
So, I am agnostic about my atheism. That is to say, I do not think the existence of god is knowable; therefore I choose to replace belief in god with a naturalistic science based system of knowledge. Your fundamentalist view of the bible as absolute truth is an antithetical philosophy.
Which makes you an ignorant believer. Whoohoo! Ignorance is bliss baby.
Well you can't save them all. I can't find true debate with someone whos prise gets in the way of true debate. It says ine the Bible (and which is evident here) its not us as believers who convert its Christ. If you can't believe the truth from me then it will be from someone else, God, or you'll be sorry in the end.
I find no debate on the grounds of someone who, instead of wanting to find the truth, just sticks with their blissful ignorance.
Since I can't argue with someone who doesn't listen, I will try not to post as often and put more of my time into useful subjects. (Though sharing the truth is useful but not to someone who's plugging their ears.)
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